The Political Debate Thread (As Continued from the Shoutbox)

[Ellendesu]

This keeps the debate out of the shoutbox and in it's own thread.

I've got something to say to each and everyone of you, but I'm going to double check my resources and research so I'm 100% correct.

Until then continue.

[Hyperguy]

Rand Mcnally > All other territories

[Ellendesu]

Point One:

"America is Better Than Other Places"

Have you ever been to these other places? Have you done any more than simply read about them in an

American Schoolbook? Have you witnessed the ways of life of other people around the world in other

nations that obviously don't matter? No. You haven't. When you see other countries on the

television screen, they show you what they want you to see. Poverty, sickness, tyranny. This is in

order to force the image into your mind at a young age that America is better because we don't

have such things in such high amounts.

Now allow me to take this to a scientific standpoint:

The reactive mind holds within itself things known as "engrams" these "engrams" are collections of

recordings and memories of physical pain, and painful emotion. When you are exposed to the flurry

of images that show how poor other countries are doing. Your reactive mind remembers the emotion

that you showed during these screenings, and it is held within. That happy little moron "The

reactive mind", maintains everything equals everything equals everything. When you see these

images on the television set. The reactive mind recalls them as such. And convinces you that these

places are horrible, they will cause you great pain and great emotional trauma should you go

there, you are brainwashed through your childhood and consequent years to believe this. Wether you

know it or not, the engram is triggered (Or keyed in)  when you are presented with the elements

that make up the engram. For example: Someone states that America is not as good as lets

say..."Britain", you have never been to Britain, but you sure know America is great because it

doesn't have things like a Queen, and a overbearing government, because America loves all of its

people and would never hurt them. You are put in a false sense of security practically since

BIRTH. These are not opinions. these are PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACTS. You get angry and immediatly

fall into the defensive and empowered mode of defending what you've been brainwashed with

everytime the engram is triggered. These painful engrams are what caused Napoleon to reduce the

height of all frenchman by 1 foot. Caused Hitler to murder thousands. And caused planes to crash

into your precious financial centers in New York City.

America is only better than other places in your own mind. For those who have seen the true

identity of other places, and understood the deeper workings of Capitalism, and the deeper

workings of the American government and their damaging actions which favour only greed and further

imperial expansion. It is far from the greatest country on Earth. It is in fact. One of the worst.

Our education system is ghastly, our literacy rates are down the tubes, the violation of bona-fide

American laws and standards are set aside and tossed away for those in power to abuse the system

that only they truely understand and comprehend.

I'll tackle another statement later.

[tsar]

Well, if you're talking about my America > everything comment, pretty sure that came off as a joke as I intended.

Anyways, as far as your post goes, the same could be said about people that think this place is terrible. Have you been to these other places for a long enough time to declare that it's better than America?

Also, I only know of other countries through history classes and the news, and I'm pretty aware of the actual conditions of such countries. It's not the '20s or '40s anymore, if we see a video of Afghanistan with people going about their daily lives riding on mules and shit, it's pretty clear that that's how life is there. I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a place where a form of transportation is an animal. Not to mention the internet has become a great tool for checking out how everywhere else works.

Last, not all Americans that like living here have this sort of "blind sheep" mentality that you think we do. Sure, people are suckers for "the next big thing" and all that, and a lot of people can't seem to make their own decisions, but that's all people, everywhere.

[Spaceworlder]

I'm going to ignore the Matrixy stuff and cut right to the point:

Given that opinions are subjective, it's no use for me to debate whether America is the greatest country in the world or not. However, I can say one thing: this country has something that others don't. There's a reason people have been immigrating here for over a century. Even those who hate America come to live here, and I've heard of plenty of people who are vocal about their opposition to this country. Yet they still live here. If they don't permanently settle here, then they stay long enough to exploit our free market and fine universities.

Of course, none of the above paragraph means anything to you, because "everything is in my mind" anyways. In that case, any political debate will probably prove fruitless, since you're predisposed to think of me as a 'puppet'. I could travel the world over, still say I think America is the best, and you'll probably say something to the effect of "your perception of the countries you visited was clouded by a bias planted in you by your own culture".

There's no defeating Orwellian rhetoric.

[Centurion]

...and if you want a puppet answer, then here it is:

If you dont like where you're at, get the fuck out or drive on.


And by the way, I wanna move to Thailand. They're under a military coupe. Sounds like the perfect place to live.

[Ellendesu]

...and if you want a puppet answer, then here it is:

If you dont like where you're at, get the fuck out or drive on.

Yeah, if you're a quitter that's a great solution. I'm not a quitter. Now am I?

I figure that I can make a difference here. I am constantly a part of protests, I speak at some, I work with various organisations that seek to make this country a better place.

America was great, but to fix it now, the current state of government must be destroyed.

[Centurion]

Yeah, if you're a quitter that's a great solution. I'm not a quitter. Now am I?

I figure that I can make a difference here. I am constantly a part of protests, I speak at some, I work with various organisations that seek to make this country a better place.

America was great, but to fix it now, the current state of government must be destroyed.

Thats a bit extreme. What sort of government do you hope to establish?

[tetsaru arigashi]

I love my country, but I just think right now we just have a bunch of dumasses running our government, mainly President Bush.  We need someone who can resolve all the conflicts going on in the Middle East right now, preferably in a peaceful way, and get our troops back home where they belong, once they figure out where the hell Osama bin Laden has been hiding all this time... (I think they should load a bomber full of Viagra and spray it all over the place so the little prick would stand right up.  =3 )  I also think we need to be aware of other global issues such as the genocide in Darfur, Vietnam's nuclear program, and China's economy possibly overtaking our own.  After all that is dealt with, the government should start funding research into things such as space exploration and cures for diseases, as well as listen more to teachers on methods of education in schools.  (I recently did a book report on a book entitled "What Video Games Have to Teach Us about Learning and Literacy," by James Paul Gee that was very intriguing - I highly suggest that you guys read it.)

On a rather different note, I believe one way terrorism could be avoided would be to stop using airplanes as a mode of public transportation and somehow make them more available to civilians, like cars have been for so long, although it'd be rather difficult to accomplish, especially in terms of navigation...  it'd probably also cause fuel prices to skyrocket even further, unless a new method of fuel is developed (possibly more electrical engines like the ones used in hybrid vehicles?).  Either that, or develop some sort of bomb-detecting/ neutralizing security system for public transportation rather than the bullshit you have to go through at airports nowadays.  =/

[tsar]

I blame the crusades.

Also: do protests ever actually do shit? I'm sure one out of every hundred gets some sort of attention, but it always seems like a bunch of dorks standing around with signs.

EDIT: As far as worldly shit goes, I think we should stop trying with certain things. I don't know about you, but I doubt many of the world's problems (such as Africa) are solveable(?), no matter how much money is gained, how many missions you send, or how much attention you give it.

Also, public school has always been shitty, I think. Depends on the teachers, of course.

[HMD]

In Rand McNally, people wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people.

[HMD]

AND I'M GOING TO USE THIS IMAGE UNTIL THE DAY I DIE

[Spaceworlder]

Yeah, if you're a quitter that's a great solution. I'm not a quitter. Now am I?

I figure that I can make a difference here. I am constantly a part of protests, I speak at some, I work with various organisations that seek to make this country a better place.

America was great, but to fix it now, the current state of government must be destroyed.

Attempting to 'destroy' the current state of government would only start a bloody conflict. No one here wants a radical change to our way of life; we wan't smaller ones.

If you all you advocate is destruction, then you aren't going to make much of a difference in this country.

I love my country, but I just think right now we just have a bunch of dumasses running our government, mainly President Bush.  We need someone who can resolve all the conflicts going on in the Middle East right now, preferably in a peaceful way, and get our troops back home where they belong, once they figure out where the hell Osama bin Laden has been hiding all this time... (I think they should load a bomber full of Viagra and spray it all over the place so the little prick would stand right up.  =3 )  I also think we need to be aware of other global issues such as the genocide in Darfur, Vietnam's nuclear program, and China's economy possibly overtaking our own.  After all that is dealt with, the government should start funding research into things such as space exploration and cures for diseases, as well as listen more to teachers on methods of education in schools.  (I recently did a book report on a book entitled "What Video Games Have to Teach Us about Learning and Literacy," by James Paul Gee that was very intriguing - I highly suggest that you guys read it.)

The problem with the "Send Our Troops Home" movement is that it doesn't stop to think that maybe our soldiers overseas don't want to withdraw from the Middle East.

I think the whole issue with China is overrated. There are two reasons China's economy won't overtake our own: communism, and totalitarianism. Those two make for a bad combination. Even if China's economy were to overtake our own, so what? It could be a good thing. Maybe we'll finally wake up and realize that we need to get our industries back into shape and cut down on the Unions that have prevented them from doing so.

The whole education issue can be summed up easily: the public school system needs to be demolished. Completely. It's a terrible waste of money and resources. The best thing for society would be to move toward private institutions, who's superiority over public schools has been proven time and time again. Of course, this is easier said than done. We've been jacked into the public school Matrix for so long that the idea of abandoning this institution simply puts the fear of God in people.

Two things that I do agree on: space exploration and disease research. However, I think that the restrictions the government has placed on these two things is a bigger problem than funding.

On a rather different note, I believe one way terrorism could be avoided would be to stop using airplanes as a mode of public transportation and somehow make them more available to civilians, like cars have been for so long, although it'd be rather difficult to accomplish, especially in terms of navigation...  it'd probably also cause fuel prices to skyrocket even further, unless a new method of fuel is developed (possibly more electrical engines like the ones used in hybrid vehicles?).  Either that, or develop some sort of bomb-detecting/ neutralizing security system for public transportation rather than the bullshit you have to go through at airports nowadays.  =/

"Roads? Where we're going we don't need... roads!"

Actually, I think personal aviation devices would only make us a bigger target to terrorism.

[R-9]

I think the whole issue with China is overrated. There are two reasons China's economy won't overtake our own: communism, and totalitarianism. Those two make for a bad combination. Even if China's economy were to overtake our own, so what? It could be a good thing. Maybe we'll finally wake up and realize that we need to get our industries back into shape and cut down on the Unions that have prevented them from doing so.

If you believe that China's economy is Communism, that's a laugh. It may be a top-directed command economy, but is sure as hell isn't communism. A revitalization of American industry would require prcatically the same amount of govenrment intervention, too, as companies have found that things are much more profitable overseas  than in their home country. Capitalism knows no loyalty or moral obligation. As for Unions, I suppose you want a return to the Gilded Age, too?

The whole education issue can be summed up easily: the public school system needs to be demolished. Completely. It's a terrible waste of money and resources. The best thing for society would be to move toward private institutions, who's superiority over public schools has been proven time and time again. Of course, this is easier said than done. We've been jacked into the public school Matrix for so long that the idea of abandoning this institution simply puts the fear of God in people.

In other words, reduce the amount of education?

[Ellendesu]

Destruction is not all I advocate, but it's fair to say that peaceful "solutions" haven't done much, now have they? Offer someone peace and happiness to give up thier corporation and they'll laugh at you. Shove a gun in thier face and they'll give it a second thought.

Ah, the Space Program, I'm glad it came up, if we spent half the money we spend on National "Defense" on the Space Program, we'd have something great up there by now. Theres so much to space, but at the same time, how much of our own planet have we actually explored? When you consider how much of the planet is actually "WATER", how deep have we looked? Imagine what amazing secrets could lie beneath the waves. So I think equally, research into our own Oceans should be prioritised just as much as Space Exploration. And the thing is, we arn't even exploring space, we just send some guys on vacation up in a Space Station for a while.

China is not Communist, and in my opinion, during Stalin - The Soviet Union was not Communist, it was Communist while Lenin was in power, and while Lenin was in power, there many great things happening, and a lot of people were very happy. True communism, is not what we've all been told it is. "Godless, Moral-less, Dictatorships". China is about as Communist as Nazi Germany was.

Also, stop with that "the troops might not want to be sent back" crap, it's not thier decision, they follow orders, when you become a soldier, you lose the right to make your own life decisions on a battlefield, your enemies are whoever you're told they are, and that's that. I've had family and friends in the military, and this is exactly what I was told. And it makes PERFECT sense. The USSR helped us in WW2, they won the war, yet years down the line they were our worst enemy. And the demon known as McCarthy-ism overtook America, it's scars still bear on us today.

and personal aviation devices are a horrible idea, sorry Tetsaru, but they are. Thats all I've got to say about it.

[tsar]

you lose the right to make your own life decisions on a battlefield, your enemies are whoever you're told they are, and that's that.

Don't join the army? That's all I can say. If you're not willing to give up your life in the first place, you shouldn't join something that requires you to possibly give it up during battle.

However, I doubt most of the people over there really want to be there.

[ROMate]

Most soldiers probably don't want to be there, but they're there because they love their countries. That's why they joined the army in the first place.

[R-9]

Most soldiers probably don't want to be there, but they're there because they love their countries. That's why they joined the army in the first place.

Either that, or they don't have the opportunity to do anything but join the army.

[tsar]

I've never heard of anyone that's HAD to join the army. Some people do it for a free way through school or whatever, but they still have to understand that the possibility of being shipped off to possibly fight is very high these days. Even if we aren't a true capitalist society, we have plenty of opportunities besides the army, even for the lowest of the low.

[bfg00]

I guess I may as well throw in my two cents:

1. The United States of America is a great country.  The First Ammendment (which makes this discussion even possible) alone makes this country great not to mention that the Constitution can be modified as needed.  People can really go for their dreams here and enjoy safety.

That being said no government in any civilization thus far has lasted forever.  If history teaches us anything its that governments come and go.  Personally I believe we have a good thing here and we are very fortunate and we should do what we can do protect it.

2. Space is the place there is no question there.  The problem is funding (as with anything), same can be said for underwater.  The US government can only do so much interms of exploring and exploiting both of these natural resources but it will be up to private industry to really get the job done.  In order to expand what is possible in outerspace and underwater it is necessary to have a reason to go there.  Currently it is not finiacially feasible to do there (mainly because there is no really reason or need to, its just because we can), however this need not always be the case.